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King Of The Monkeys
(Finally Got A Star!)
70 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2014 : 3:56:40 PM
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I remember the first year Paul Lawless was with the IHL Cyclones. With his speed and stick handling, he was a man among boys. No other player has had such a dramatic impact on me as he did.
It's fun to see all the IHL names being bantered about. I hate to be one of those geezers that talk about the glory days of the past, but those years at the Gardens are by far the fondest hockey memories I have...Howie Rosenblatt, Dennis Desrosiers, Rick Hayward, Pokey Reddick, all were such characters. Stephane Richer, Gord Hines, Dallas Eakins, Bob Boughner. And of course all the great scorers they had.
I think that these days with the two affiliates it is harder to keep a player around long enough to get a real affinity for him. You love David D. but then he is gone so quickly. Barrett was not at all a flashy player so I really had to watch him closely to appreciate what a good player he was.
The two Kelly Cups were fantastic to be witness to.
I guess that I just love all Cyclones and will continue to support them just out of curiosity about who will be the next 'greatest Cyclone ever'.
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danc
(The Next Level!)
114 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2014 : 04:45:08 AM
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Best overall Cyclones player: David Desharnais. Had an MVP season in lone year in Cincinnati. Should have been coMVP of playoffs. Led team in scoring by a ridiculous 41 points. Led league in scoring by 15 points. Team would not have won Championship without him. Put up best NHL numbers of any Cyclones player whom I'm aware of. Gilbert Dionne may have been close in terms of NHL numbers for games played, but he wasn't a #1 Center and never came close to leading the Canadiens in scoring like Desharnais did.
10 Best players to ever wear a Cincinnti uniform...looking at career as a whole, not just time in Cincinnati:
1) Mark Messier...only 50 or so games as Stinger, but was here for a season. 6 time Cup winner. Hall of Famer.
2) Mike Gartner....rookie season here as Stinger. 700 plus NHL goals. Hockey Hall of Fame.
3) Ryan Getzlaf ...only 10 or so playoff games here as Duck. A point per game player in a low scoring era. One cup to his credit already. Not out of the question as a potential Hall of Famer.
4) Pat Stapleton. One year Stinger blueliner had a long and distinguished NHL and WHA career.
4a) Johnnie "Pie" MacKenzie. Short term Stinger won 2 cups on Bobby Orr/Phil Esposito Bruins teams and played around 20 years in the NHL.
6) Peter McNabb....Former Sword centerman had a long and productive NHL career. Won Calder Cup as a Sword.
6a) Robbie Ftorek...WHA MVP for Phoenix Roadrunners. Superior WHA player. Didn't bloom as a player until he was in the WHA. Pre-WHA NHl career not impressive. Post-WHA NHL career was injury riddled and never performed anywhere near WHA levels.
6b) Mike Liut Stingers goalie....Had a long and successful NHL career. Won Lester Pearson Trophy--players voted MVP in NHL.
6c) JS Giguere (Ducks goalie) won Stanley Cup and very decent NHL career.
6d) Blaine Stoughton. Former Stinger just one of two players to score 50 goals in a single season in both the NHL and WHA. The other was some guy named Bobby Hull.
Honorable mention: David Desharnais (ECHL Cyclones), Andy MacDonald (Ducks), Chris Kunitz (Ducks), Rick Dudley (Swords and Stingers), Richie LeDuc (Stingers)
Barret Eghoetz was a good ECHL player, but wasn't even an AHL prospect at any point during his career. Still, he was the captain of a Kelly Cup winning team and was a very productive player at the ECHL level. |
Edited by - danc on 01/16/2014 05:15:50 AM |
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dbc
(Been Here Awhile)
865 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2014 : 1:05:45 PM
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Four ways of cutting this:
1)Nice list danc of best players ever to wear a Cincinnati uniform no matter how long or how well they played here. I agree it has to be Messier
2) I also agree that Desharnais had the best one year relative to his league.
3)As far as the best career in Cincinnati guess I would go with Lawless
4) People's favorite player is an individual choice based off individual things. As an example my favorite Red Sox of all time was Sammy White ( huh?). Here I like Cedric. Saw him start out as rookie and his playoff performance for the Cup was tremendous. |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2014 : 8:51:52 PM
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Pat Stapleton and Johnny McKenzie were at the end of their careers when they played for the WHA Stingers. Stapleton got by on smarts by the time he played for the Stingers. McKenzie just took up a roster spot. Made zero impact while wearing a Stingers uniform.
Chris Kunitz is a much better, more complete player than Blaine Stoughton. He has also been a key member of two Stanley Cup-winning teams and is going to be a member of Team Canada in the Olympics. Stoughton scored goals but was never a great player. He would have watched a lot of games in the press box had he played for Scotty Bowman like another former 50-goal scorer did after was traded to Montreal, Pierre Larouche.
Bill Hajt is definitely one of the top 10. For 10 years he was one of the best defensive defensemen in the NHL with Buffalo.
What about Craig Ramsay? He had a solid NHL career with Buffalo.
Corey Perry? He's led the NHL in goals and is only one of the best players in the world.
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danc
(The Next Level!)
114 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 3:57:24 PM
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Forgot about Perry's 3 game playoff stint here. Hajt was a solid stay at home type who I forgot as well.
Lupul of the Ducks and Cole of the Cyclones probably would round out any list.
Kunitz is a decent NHLer, but let's not put too much stock in his statistics or selection to Team Canada. Playing with Crosby would make anyone good statistically and he was chosen as the best player in the world's sidekick and probably at Crosby's wanting.
Martin St. Louis and Claude Giroux are better players than Kunitz and it's not even close. |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 5:27:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by danc
Forgot about Perry's 3 game playoff stint here. Hajt was a solid stay at home type who I forgot as well.
Lupul of the Ducks and Cole of the Cyclones probably would round out any list.
Lupul has a ways to go before he can join the discussion. He was one of the top scorers a couple years ago before he got hurt late in the year, but he struggled with consistency and work ethic when he was with Anaheim (twice), Edmonton and Philadelphia. After having his career almost end due to injuries during his second tour with Anaheim, he stopped taking being an NHL player for granted and began to appreciate the opportunity, knowing it could end at any time.
If he keeps playing like he has, he has a shot at being one of the better players that passed through Cincinnati. Right now he's on the outside looking in.
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Edited by - Donnie Hockey on 01/20/2014 5:56:29 PM |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 5:48:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by danc
Martin St. Louis and Claude Giroux are better players than Kunitz and it's not even close.
Tampa Bay Lightning GM Steve Yzerman and Detroit Red Wings head coach Mike Babcock would disagree with you. So would most people in their positions around the NHL.
St. Louis and Giroux are better offensive players than Kuntiz but not better all-around players. Kunitz does things that don't show up on the stats sheet that help the Penguins win games. Also worth nothing that because of the things he does, Crosby plays his best hockey when Kunitz is on his line.
The things Kunitz does that don't show up on the stats sheet is why he is on Team Canada for the Olympcs and St. Louis and Giroux will be home watching.
Kunitz can play on all four lines while St. Louis and Giroux have to play on one of the first two lines to be effective players for Team Canada. They can't play on a checking line, used to shut down the other countries best forwards. Kunitz can play in the top six, he can play on the power play, he can kill penalties and he can be used in a defensive role. He's more versatile and that's why he's on the team.
A lot of fans, because they don't understand the game, use stats to compare players and determine who they think is better. The stat sheet however doesn't show how good a player is in all three zones, how many battles they win for the puck, how many turnovers they create (or give up), how effective they are on the forecheck, or how hard they are to play against.
A former IHL Cyclones player that has flown under the radar is Craig Adams. Fans look at his stats and wouldn't think he was an important player for his teams, but he's been a very valuable player for his teams, including Stanley-Cup winning teams.
Adams does all the little things that lead to winning well which is why he's played more than 12 years in the NHL. Had it not been for the lockout in 2004-05 and last season, he would be approaching 1,000 games. You don't get to that level unless you are really good at the essential parts of the game.
When Adams is on the ice, to the fans it doesn't look like he or his line accomplish much, but watch what happens when he's out there. The puck is usually in the offensive zone below the goal line, with the other team's defenseman and wingers battling him for the puck while he keeps it moving along the wall. Those battles eventually wear down the defensemen over the course of the game and by the third period it allows guys like Crosby and Malkin and some of their other skill guys to take advantage of that. Adams may not have been on the ice for the goal in the third period, but what he did through the first two periods often times contributes later in the game.
There isn't a coach in the NHL that wouldn't want Adams on their roster. In a lot of ways, he's more valuable than players like Desharnais and Lupul. Fans don't notice Adams and what he contributes to the Penguins success, but Penguins head coach Dan Byslma and his staff do.
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Edited by - Donnie Hockey on 01/20/2014 6:00:27 PM |
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danc
(The Next Level!)
114 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2014 : 9:33:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
quote:
Originally posted by danc
Martin St. Louis and Claude Giroux are better players than Kunitz and it's not even close.
Tampa Bay Lightning GM Steve Yzerman and Detroit Red Wings head coach Mike Babcock would disagree with you. So would most people in their positions around the NHL.
St. Louis and Giroux are better offensive players than Kuntiz but not better all-around players. Kunitz does things that don't show up on the stats sheet that help the Penguins win games. Also worth nothing that because of the things he does, Crosby plays his best hockey when Kunitz is on his line.
The things Kunitz does that don't show up on the stats sheet is why he is on Team Canada for the Olympcs and St. Louis and Giroux will be home watching.
Kunitz can play on all four lines while St. Louis and Giroux have to play on one of the first two lines to be effective players for Team Canada. They can't play on a checking line, used to shut down the other countries best forwards. Kunitz can play in the top six, he can play on the power play, he can kill penalties and he can be used in a defensive role. He's more versatile and that's why he's on the team.
A lot of fans, because they don't understand the game, use stats to compare players and determine who they think is better. The stat sheet however doesn't show how good a player is in all three zones, how many battles they win for the puck, how many turnovers they create (or give up), how effective they are on the forecheck, or how hard they are to play against.
A former IHL Cyclones player that has flown under the radar is Craig Adams. Fans look at his stats and wouldn't think he was an important player for his teams, but he's been a very valuable player for his teams, including Stanley-Cup winning teams.
Adams does all the little things that lead to winning well which is why he's played more than 12 years in the NHL. Had it not been for the lockout in 2004-05 and last season, he would be approaching 1,000 games. You don't get to that level unless you are really good at the essential parts of the game.
When Adams is on the ice, to the fans it doesn't look like he or his line accomplish much, but watch what happens when he's out there. The puck is usually in the offensive zone below the goal line, with the other team's defenseman and wingers battling him for the puck while he keeps it moving along the wall. Those battles eventually wear down the defensemen over the course of the game and by the third period it allows guys like Crosby and Malkin and some of their other skill guys to take advantage of that. Adams may not have been on the ice for the goal in the third period, but what he did through the first two periods often times contributes later in the game.
There isn't a coach in the NHL that wouldn't want Adams on their roster. In a lot of ways, he's more valuable than players like Desharnais and Lupul. Fans don't notice Adams and what he contributes to the Penguins success, but Penguins head coach Dan Byslma and his staff do.
Martin St. Louis is a surefire Hockey Hall of Famer. Claude Giroux is making $8.2 million per year over the next 6 or so years. Yet, Chris Kunitz at $3.8 million is a better all around player than these two? Don't think so. Who would a GM take when building his team first with each of the players in his prime? Kunitz? Ha ha if you think so.
While it is true that Kunitz makes a better checking forward than the other two and that he *might* be a better fit on Team Canada, his relationship with Sidney Crosby is what got him on the team. Nothing more. If Kunitz had been on any other team other than the Penguins, then he's not even in consideration for the pick.
Adams is a useful 4th line, PK plug. That's obvious or he wouldn't have lasted for so long. I don't even remember him playing here, but I didn't watch many games during a 5 or 6 year period, that period of which coincided with his stop in Cincinnati.
If Adams is more valuable to his team than Lupul or Desharnais, then he's got the worst agent imaginable. He's on a one year deal making $700k playing 12 minutes per game while Lupul is on a long term deal making $5.2 million per year/18 minutes TOI per game and Desharnais is making $3.5 million per year for the next 4 years with 16:30 TOI per game.
Yeah, plugs are valuable to a team. My favorite players for the Columbus Blue Jackets used to be Derek Dorsett and Derek MacKenzie. While they wore players down, won puck battles and were decent on the PK, I'd never suggest that they were more valuable to a team than a Brandon Dubinsky or a Mike Foligno. Neither would any GM. Also, it's not exactly "insider info" that winning puck battles, takeaway/giveaway ratios, and grinding teams down are all important things. Many fans are aware of this, but don't find it necessary to trumpet this knowledge as some sort of insightful discovery.
Grinding players are useful, but they're a dime a dozen. Most of these useful plugs and PKers are very replaceable. Consistent NHL scorers are rare in comparison. Take that to the bank. Desharnais and Lupul are. |
Edited by - danc on 01/20/2014 9:46:27 PM |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2014 : 9:04:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by danc
quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
quote:
Originally posted by danc
Martin St. Louis and Claude Giroux are better players than Kunitz and it's not even close.
Tampa Bay Lightning GM Steve Yzerman and Detroit Red Wings head coach Mike Babcock would disagree with you. So would most people in their positions around the NHL.
St. Louis and Giroux are better offensive players than Kuntiz but not better all-around players. Kunitz does things that don't show up on the stats sheet that help the Penguins win games. Also worth nothing that because of the things he does, Crosby plays his best hockey when Kunitz is on his line.
The things Kunitz does that don't show up on the stats sheet is why he is on Team Canada for the Olympcs and St. Louis and Giroux will be home watching.
Kunitz can play on all four lines while St. Louis and Giroux have to play on one of the first two lines to be effective players for Team Canada. They can't play on a checking line, used to shut down the other countries best forwards. Kunitz can play in the top six, he can play on the power play, he can kill penalties and he can be used in a defensive role. He's more versatile and that's why he's on the team.
A lot of fans, because they don't understand the game, use stats to compare players and determine who they think is better. The stat sheet however doesn't show how good a player is in all three zones, how many battles they win for the puck, how many turnovers they create (or give up), how effective they are on the forecheck, or how hard they are to play against.
A former IHL Cyclones player that has flown under the radar is Craig Adams. Fans look at his stats and wouldn't think he was an important player for his teams, but he's been a very valuable player for his teams, including Stanley-Cup winning teams.
Adams does all the little things that lead to winning well which is why he's played more than 12 years in the NHL. Had it not been for the lockout in 2004-05 and last season, he would be approaching 1,000 games. You don't get to that level unless you are really good at the essential parts of the game.
When Adams is on the ice, to the fans it doesn't look like he or his line accomplish much, but watch what happens when he's out there. The puck is usually in the offensive zone below the goal line, with the other team's defenseman and wingers battling him for the puck while he keeps it moving along the wall. Those battles eventually wear down the defensemen over the course of the game and by the third period it allows guys like Crosby and Malkin and some of their other skill guys to take advantage of that. Adams may not have been on the ice for the goal in the third period, but what he did through the first two periods often times contributes later in the game.
There isn't a coach in the NHL that wouldn't want Adams on their roster. In a lot of ways, he's more valuable than players like Desharnais and Lupul. Fans don't notice Adams and what he contributes to the Penguins success, but Penguins head coach Dan Byslma and his staff do.
Martin St. Louis is a surefire Hockey Hall of Famer. Claude Giroux is making $8.2 million per year over the next 6 or so years. Yet, Chris Kunitz at $3.8 million is a better all around player than these two? Don't think so. Who would a GM take when building his team first with each of the players in his prime? Kunitz? Ha ha if you think so.
While it is true that Kunitz makes a better checking forward than the other two and that he *might* be a better fit on Team Canada, his relationship with Sidney Crosby is what got him on the team. Nothing more. If Kunitz had been on any other team other than the Penguins, then he's not even in consideration for the pick.
Adams is a useful 4th line, PK plug. That's obvious or he wouldn't have lasted for so long. I don't even remember him playing here, but I didn't watch many games during a 5 or 6 year period, that period of which coincided with his stop in Cincinnati.
If Adams is more valuable to his team than Lupul or Desharnais, then he's got the worst agent imaginable. He's on a one year deal making $700k playing 12 minutes per game while Lupul is on a long term deal making $5.2 million per year/18 minutes TOI per game and Desharnais is making $3.5 million per year for the next 4 years with 16:30 TOI per game.
Yeah, plugs are valuable to a team. My favorite players for the Columbus Blue Jackets used to be Derek Dorsett and Derek MacKenzie. While they wore players down, won puck battles and were decent on the PK, I'd never suggest that they were more valuable to a team than a Brandon Dubinsky or a Mike Foligno. Neither would any GM. Also, it's not exactly "insider info" that winning puck battles, takeaway/giveaway ratios, and grinding teams down are all important things. Many fans are aware of this, but don't find it necessary to trumpet this knowledge as some sort of insightful discovery.
Grinding players are useful, but they're a dime a dozen. Most of these useful plugs and PKers are very replaceable. Consistent NHL scorers are rare in comparison. Take that to the bank. Desharnais and Lupul are.
Yzerman and Babcock selected the players for Team Canada. Not Crosby.
They want to win a Gold Medal and assembled the roster they thought could get it done. Kunitz is someone they felt they needed to have to take home the Gold.
You can't win with just skill guys. You have to have some sandpaper, too. That's why Giroux and St. Louis were left off the team. They already had enough guys that do what they do.
You can say what you want but the fact is more GM's and coaches would prefer to have Kunitz than St. Louis. Kunitz can do more things to help the team win. If St. Louis isn't creating offense what does he do?
There are some NHL GM's that don't like Giroux. They don't think he's the kind of guy you win with. Your best players need to be your best players every night, and he's not the Flyers best player every night. GM's and coaches see that. Fans like you don't. They only see what their stats are and how much they're being paid.
As a wise man once said, you can always tell a Cyclones fan but you cannot tell them much. :)
I respect your thoughts and opinions, though.
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danc
(The Next Level!)
114 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2014 : 4:26:38 PM
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Snide comment aside, I get your point about Giroux, though I'll stick with my notion that he'd be picked far more often than Kunitz.
With respect to St. Louis, from a career-long perspective, I would find it hard to fathom any NHL GM taking Kunitz over him.
Kunitz has had the very best of fortune in being able to play on a line with the world's best player. He's a 55-60 points per season player whose production is around a point per game playing with Crosby. Kunitz is certainly a useful 2nd line player on most teams, but his career has pretty much taken off as the world's best player's sidekick. I stand by my opinion that he's not a Team Canada choice absent of his relationship with Crosby.
While Babcock and Yzerman chose the team, they didn't do it without input from others. Wayne Gretzky had plenty of input as a player on his team's rosters when he was with both the Kings and the Rangers, and I believe it would naive to think that Crosby had anything less than significant input over whether Kunitz was a member of Team Canada. Top players have input, in many cases, on team personnel decisions. For instance, Max Pacioretty, the Montreal Canadiens best winger, has always voiced a preference to play with former Cyclone David Desharnais, even when Desharnais was at the depth of his slump earlier this season.
In any case, Kunitz has far exceeded probably anybody's expectations of him. An undrafted player who didn't stick full time in the NHL until he was 27, he's had a very nice career.
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2014 : 8:13:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by danc
Snide comment aside, I get your point about Giroux, though I'll stick with my notion that he'd be picked far more often than Kunitz.
With respect to St. Louis, from a career-long perspective, I would find it hard to fathom any NHL GM taking Kunitz over him.
Kunitz has had the very best of fortune in being able to play on a line with the world's best player. He's a 55-60 points per season player whose production is around a point per game playing with Crosby. Kunitz is certainly a useful 2nd line player on most teams, but his career has pretty much taken off as the world's best player's sidekick. I stand by my opinion that he's not a Team Canada choice absent of his relationship with Crosby.
While Babcock and Yzerman chose the team, they didn't do it without input from others. Wayne Gretzky had plenty of input as a player on his team's rosters when he was with both the Kings and the Rangers, and I believe it would naive to think that Crosby had anything less than significant input over whether Kunitz was a member of Team Canada. Top players have input, in many cases, on team personnel decisions. For instance, Max Pacioretty, the Montreal Canadiens best winger, has always voiced a preference to play with former Cyclone David Desharnais, even when Desharnais was at the depth of his slump earlier this season.
In any case, Kunitz has far exceeded probably anybody's expectations of him. An undrafted player who didn't stick full time in the NHL until he was 27, he's had a very nice career.
Again, it's not always about points. Fans always think that determines a player's value. There are things Kunitz does that leads to goals when he's on the ice and he doesn't get a point. Those things don't show up in the stats column.
Crosby has always played his best hockey with Kunitz on his line. Crosby benefits playing with him.
Over the length of their careers, sure you take what St. Louis has done over Kunitz on paper. But if a team was looking to win this season, just about every GM and head coach in the NHL would take Kunitz. If you were talking body of work over their careers, that's different.
Kunitz didn't turn pro until he was almost 24. He had 14 teams interested in him after his college career ended. He's been a key member of two Stanley Cup-winning teams. And now, he's a member of Team Canada. A lot of Cyclones fans won't give him his due because he played for the AHL Cincinnati Mighty Ducks. And that's typical of Cyclones fans.
St. Louis, if he's not scoring goals and making plays, still draws penalties with his speed and things like that. He's a great player but doesn't do as many things as Kunitz that leads to winning. Even though St. Louis is 106 (actually, I think 38), I'd take him over Giroux if I'm playing for this year.
From 2007 through 2012, I saw 6-8 Lightning games a year at the St. Pete Times Forum. St. Louis is a fun player to watch. Incredible speed.
If I could pick any player in the NHL to start my team with, I'm taking Jonathan Toews of the Chicago Blackhawks. He's the best all-around player in the NHL and a terrific leader. Crosby is better offensively, but he's not as good as Toews defensively, in the corners and along the wall. You'll see how good Toews is at all parts of the game in the Olympics.
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Edited by - Donnie Hockey on 01/22/2014 8:22:15 PM |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
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