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Primis
(Finally Got A Star!)
USA
56 Posts |
 Posted - 01/15/2010 : 08:15:02 AM
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This is something else to chew on, for you Cincy folks who are pushing for an IHL franchise or wanting to see one.
I won't get into this on FYC or ITB because the zealots will come out in full force and scream and refuse to listen, but I've heard several things about the Muskegon Lumberjacks. First, I've heard the pretty public rumor that Muskegon is looking at a possible move to the USHL, which isn't new. This rumor has been around for a couple of years now, and is resurfacing again at a time that doesn't surprise me.
This is because I've also heard from a fairly reliable source that while Jacks players are getting paid on time still, that's about it. They're not able to get new equipment when they need it and are trying to scrape by with some old, hastily-repaired stuff that isn't always working out, and some of the players have begun to openly grumble about the conditions. It's publicly assumed Muskegon is well over the IHL "salary cap" at this point, with all the names they've acquired, so that seems to be making it an even sorer point. And this is in a bus league where they don't ever really have to travel too far and expenses are down.
This also may be related to why the city was so willing to house the relocated AAHL team there, if they think they might lose the Jacks... The Muskegon owners apparently aren't quite made of the money that many people think.
At any rate, signs are pointing to trouble in Muskegon. Musky was the other original core franchise besides Kalamazoo and Fort Wayne when the league restarted a few years ago. Muskegon will probably either need to find new ownership in the offseason if this is true. Otherwise it's highly unlikely they'd stick around the IHL.
The USHL rumor is interesting still, because peopel running the USHL by and large have a lot of money and could help Muskegon out at first if they made a move.
So just something to chew on. Bloomington might not have an arena to play in next season if the city closes their unprofitable arena (which has been publicly floated). Dayton's in horrible shape (oftentimes not even drawing 1,000 a game now). Flint's in horrible shape. Neither Dayton or Flint may make it to the start of next season. Quad City may be eyeing jumping ship to the ECHL or USHL, and does have an out clause if the IHL loses too many teams... I've heard some rumors there. And now Muskegon's in dire straits.
Things are really piling up in terms of the IHL's problems and questions. It's going to be another very rough offseason for them, and if they thought last offseason was rough when Kalamazoo left, if they have to go through it again I don't know that the league will be able to make it. |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2010 : 12:38:20 PM
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Thanks for your post, Primis.
One fact about Muskegon which stood out like a sore thumb to me is their 2000 crowds during last year's finals. That is never a good sign-especially when half the fans were from the visiting team's city (Fort Wayne).
Anyone with any ability to dispassionately analyze a situation knows that the prospects of the IHL even returning next season are not anywhere near a certainty.
The posters on this board who constantly float the retarded idea of an IHL or USHL team in Cincy are no more than trolls who have a sorry need for attention (didn't their momma's love them? waaa) and instill fear into some of the less business savvy Cyclone fans. They are to be regarded as one would an unwanted benign growth on one's skin: Annoyances with no threat of ever doing any harm.
Please do post it on ITB. The thought of LGKomet angrily spitting his orange kool aide upon his monitor makes me happy. |
"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Edited by - hrc666 on 01/15/2010 12:38:53 PM |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2010 : 1:57:22 PM
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Meanwhile the ECHL is having its own problems with as many as six teams expected to cease operations at the end of the season.
And, what happens to the Cyclones if the Toledo Walleye ownership partners with the Detroit Red Wings to acquire an AHL franchise? The Cyclones travel bill has gone up with the loss of Dayton. Their travel costs would rise substantially if Toledo leaves the ECHL. This is something to chew on: Would it be feasible for the Cyclones to play in a league without Dayton and/or Toledo as nearby rivals? |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
Edited by - Donnie Hockey on 01/16/2010 2:02:43 PM |
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TwoMinutesWellWorthIt
(The Next Level!)
139 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2010 : 02:21:07 AM
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| Hasn't someone looked at putting a team in Louisville? If that went to the ECHL, it would be a saving grace for Cincinnati. Of course their travel exepenses would be pretty crazy too. |
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fangers
(The Next Level!)
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2010 : 12:36:13 PM
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Muskegon -> USHL??
During Sunday's Waterloo Black Hawks b2 broadcast they interviewed Butch Johnson - Waterloo owner and Chairman of the USHL Board of Governors - and he talked about potential of 16 teams (currently have 14 with Dubuque already approved for 2010/2011) for next season. He mentioned that "a team in Michigan" has gotten "everything together" and there will be a vote on their application during the USHL League meeting held during the All-Star break (Jan 25-26). Prevailing thought seems to be that the team will be in Muskegon. |
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fangers
(The Next Level!)
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2010 : 12:38:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by TwoMinutesWellWorthIt
Hasn't someone looked at putting a team in Louisville? If that went to the ECHL, it would be a saving grace for Cincinnati. Of course their travel exepenses would be pretty crazy too.
I know that USHL looked into Louisville, but it was contingent on the city (or private party) rennovating the rink downtown. Recent economic issues = no rennovations yet, so I would think this is awhile off. |
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2010 : 12:56:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by fangers
Muskegon -> USHL??
During Sunday's Waterloo Black Hawks b2 broadcast they interviewed Butch Johnson - Waterloo owner and Chairman of the USHL Board of Governors - and he talked about potential of 16 teams (currently have 14 with Dubuque already approved for 2010/2011) for next season. He mentioned that "a team in Michigan" has gotten "everything together" and there will be a vote on their application during the USHL League meeting held during the All-Star break (Jan 25-26). Prevailing thought seems to be that the team will be in Muskegon.
Would not be a surprise considering the owner's passion for amateur sports. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
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Primis
(Finally Got A Star!)
USA
56 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2010 : 10:20:46 AM
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Hmmm, I'm missing a reply I thought I had in here already.
#1, I can't and won't ever knock Musky's crowds. They draw 2,000-2,500/game in a very small market -- MSA of something like 170,000. That's what, 1/20th the size of Cincy's MSA? Muskegon is a great small hockey town, with a rich minor league history. If Muskegon ever lost hockey altogether I'd feel very sad.
As far as playoffs, the IHL drew very poorly for playoffs all around last year. I was at Game 6 in Kalamazoo against Fort Wayne and there were maybe 1200 in the building with maybe 250 Komet fans. If anyone wants to know why the Wings left the IHL -- that showing was why.
@Donnie -
The ECHL may lost 3 teams or so from the west in the next season or two, but could also grab a couple newly-vacant Eastern markets then as well once the AHL vacates them. I wouldn't worry about the ECHL. If the worst thing that happens to the ECHL is that markets are able to move up to the AHL level, then I don't see how that reflects poorly on the league's health. On the contrary, it shows that the league is a good breeding ground for new/young markets when they're available.
Also... I don't know where you get the idea about Detroit/Toledo. Grand Rapids is Detroit's AHL affiliate... draws 6,500/game... has a fairly new arena in Van Andel that at times holds crowds of 10,000 or more for games... and Detroit's very happy there. Toledo can't compete with that even with the new arena. Now Toledo could maybe be a longshot to get an AHL affiliate if the Hawks lose Rockford... otherwise I think everyone knows the AA Level fits Toledo very well.
As for Louisville... they're not ready yet. The market has to come back around for them, and even the IHL isn't considering them, if that tells you something (and the IHL would expand just about anywhere at this point -- remember, they're talking about accepting Evansville early even though the new arena won't be ready yet and they'd have to play a year or two in Swonder, which seats about 1,000).
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Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2010 : 7:24:24 PM
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Primis ... attendance has nothing whatsoever to do with player development. A Detroit prospect would receive as much ice time in Toledo as they do in Grand Rapids. Detroit doesn't own or operate the Grand Rapids franchise, so what the Griffins draw is really quite inconsequential to the Red Wings.
The Red Wings are happy in Grand Rapids but they've had a strong interest in having their AHL team in Toledo for several years. It's going to happen. The only question is when. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
Edited by - Donnie Hockey on 01/20/2010 9:47:47 PM |
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taoistlumberjak
(The Next Level!)
133 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2010 : 9:30:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
Primis ... attendance has nothing whatsoever to do with player development.
quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
Primis ... attendance has nothing whatsoever to do with player development.
quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
Primis ... attendance has nothing whatsoever to do with player development.
and done. |
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Primis
(Finally Got A Star!)
USA
56 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2010 : 09:13:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
Primis ... attendance has nothing whatsoever to do with player development. A Detroit prospect would receive as much ice time in Toledo as they do in Grand Rapids. Detroit doesn't own or operate the Grand Rapids franchise, so what the Griffins draw is really quite inconsequential to the Red Wings.
The Red Wings are happy in Grand Rapids but they've had a strong interest in having their AHL team in Toledo for several years. It's going to happen. The only question is when.
I really still don't see it... what difference then would there be in player development in Toledo instead of Grand Rapids? I know the rumors been there forever about becoming Detroit's AHL affiliate. It was there when I lived in Toledo back in the early 2000's. But it usually is perpetuated by Toledo-types, much like there's always been "Detroit affiliate" rumors in Kalamazoo. Wishful thinking, mainly.
Keep in mind here, I'm really not a Griffins fan. Nor a Toledo fan either. I am, however, a Red Wings fan. I'm just curious why you think it's such an absolute slam dunk, when DET has been very pleased with Grand Rapids, and has stated publicly that they like having them as a link to the Western part of the state (much like training camp in Traverse City is their link to the northern part). |
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fangers
(The Next Level!)
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 12:35:20 PM
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I would expect to see Cincy's name come up as a potential spot for new IHL over the next couple months, as the IHL scrambles to try to keep the league at 7 teams and looks into any potential owner (who has some $ and can spell hockey).
I say this because I've heard that Musky pretty sure to go to USHL, Flint has big time $$ issues, QC can opt out of their lease if not 7 teams in the league, and the IHL BOG had emergency meetings in Las Vegas the past couple days...
Not that I think IHL to Cincy would be a good thing, but as rumors start to fly about potential new IHL cities I expect Cincy, Louisville and Evansville to be names bound to be mentioned... |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 3:02:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by fangers
.....and the IHL BOG had emergency meetings in Las Vegas the past couple days...
I hadn't heard of this. Emergency meetings don't suggest good things. It would seem obvious that the issue which made these meetings necessary would be Muskegon's soon-to-be announced defection to the USHL.
I would agree that rumors of all sorts regarding many markets will be coming out of the woodwork for the next several months.
I've got to think that the Frankes are ready to throw in the towel on the IHL. Supporting (at least) Flint and Bloomington has got to have severely impacted their bottom line.
The IHL appears to be out of markets. Cincinnati would only be for an insane owner. Evansville would have to play in a bandbox (1500 seat arena) for at least a year. Louisville has failed so many times that it could hardly be regarded as a prime market (to anyone but the IHL).
I look for the IHL/UHL/CoHL to cease operations after this season. The surviving teams would be Ft. Wayne and QC. Muskegon appears to be USHL bound. Port Huron's owners may as well be in the ECHL if they don't care about money-I'd think that junior (USHL/NAHL) would be their best option. Bloomington, Flint and Dayton appear destined for the dead hockey franchise ash heap.
FtW and QC could join either the CHL or ECHL. Travel wouldn't be ideal, but FTW would be far better off financially than if they took the steep cost step up to the AHL.
AA hockey appears destined for a mega-league at some point. The ECHL and the CHL could merge and perhaps the 30-30-30 concept may become a reality in the next few years.
In any case, this off season has got a very strong potential be pivotal regarding the future of minor league hockey at all levels. |
"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Edited by - hrc666 on 01/27/2010 3:17:34 PM |
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fangers
(The Next Level!)
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 3:37:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hrc666
quote:
Originally posted by fangers
.....and the IHL BOG had emergency meetings in Las Vegas the past couple days...
I hadn't heard of this. Emergency meetings don't suggest good things. It would seem obvious that the issue which made these meetings necessary would be Muskegon's soon-to-be announced defection to the USHL.
I would agree that rumors of all sorts regarding many markets will be coming out of the woodwork for the next several months.
I've got to think that the Frankes are ready to throw in the towel on the IHL. Supporting (at least) Flint and Bloomington has got to have severely impacted their bottom line.
The IHL appears to be out of markets. Cincinnati would only be for an insane owner. Evansville would have to play in a bandbox (1500 seat arena) for at least a year. Louisville has failed so many times that it could hardly be regarded as a prime market (to anyone but the IHL).
I look for the IHL/UHL/CoHL to cease operations after this season. The surviving teams would be Ft. Wayne and QC. Muskegon appears to be USHL bound. Port Huron's owners may as well be in the ECHL if they don't care about money-I'd think that junior (USHL/NAHL) would be their best option. Bloomington, Flint and Dayton appear destined for the dead hockey franchise ash heap.
FtW and QC could join either the CHL or ECHL. Travel wouldn't be ideal, but FTW would be far better off financially than if they took the steep cost step up to the AHL.
AA hockey appears destined for a mega-league at some point. The ECHL and the CHL could merge and perhaps the 30-30-30 concept may become a reality in the next few years.
In any case, this off season has got a very strong potential be pivotal regarding the future of minor league hockey at all levels.
My contacts are with my son's family advisor group and they have clients in all the pro leagues. They feel this will be the biggest shakeup in the minor pro landscape that's been seen in awhile. Speculation I'm picking up is:
Muskegon - USHL
Ft Wayne - ECHL
QC - CHL
then merger of the remaining IHL/AAHL teams.
There's also talk of Evansville to the USHL in 2011. Also talk of several of the Michigan NAHL (Tier II Junior A) teams going to Tier III where they can charge the player fees (no fees at Tier I & II levels).
This doesn't account for the ECHL teams (more from the West) that are rumored to be having problems...
Should be interesting to see how it all shakes out.... |
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elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 5:05:20 PM
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If FTW's ownership is as tied into the IHL as I believe them to be and there is a potential merger between the IHL and AAHL, then FTW will most likely stick with that League.
If the Franke's are will to give up control [of the league they play in] a move to the ECHL is possible. That being said the ECHL needs to be careful with expansion. The American conference is already overloaded with 3 divsions. Luckily, each divsion has an equal number of teams. Adding FTW would disrupt the current balance. |
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hrc666
(Loves To Post!)
1363 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 11:14:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
If FTW's ownership is as tied into the IHL as I believe them to be and there is a potential merger between the IHL and AAHL, then FTW will most likely stick with that League.
If the Franke's are will to give up control [of the league they play in] a move to the ECHL is possible. That being said the ECHL needs to be careful with expansion. The American conference is already overloaded with 3 divsions. Luckily, each divsion has an equal number of teams. Adding FTW would disrupt the current balance.
Fort Wayne would be a tremendous addition to any minor league-including the AHL. Any lack of symmetry between divisions in terms of number of teams would be more than made up by having a franchise with the prestige and success of the Komets. They, in fact, would be the ECHL's most prestigious franchise on their very first day of existence.
Fort Wayne is a jewel in the world of minor league hockey. The ECHL would be honored to have them. Note: I will not post this on a board frequented by Komet fans. LOL.
The Frankes won't like not having the control that they have now. They won't like having to adhere to a salary cap. But, they certainly won't risk their franchise to play in some garbage level hockey league like the AAHL. And it is garbage. And it is very unstable. Anyone who saw Evansville play Dayton in the preseason can attest to the crummy level of play of AAHL teams. Dayton outshot Evansville about 55-8. And Dayton is not a very good team. Former Cyclone Chris Ferazolli was a star at that level for crying out loud. The Fort Wayne fans-about 7,000 per game paying about $15 average per seat-wouldn't stand for AAHL slop.
The Fort Wayne fans will gripe about coming to the ECHL, but they'll accept it. The sensible Komet fans know that the IHL has been on very shaky ground since its inception. Many would probably like to see a move to the AHL, but it's hard for me to see how the Frankes would be willing to accept moving from a profit of well of a million per year (not including propping up other IHL teams) to a much smaller profit and the risk of not being profitable at some point.
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"The only way David Desharnais will see an NHL game is if he buys a ticket".
--donnie hockey
"David Desharnais will be invisible during 5 on 5 hockey. IN THE AHL"
--donnie hockey
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Edited by - hrc666 on 01/27/2010 11:16:57 PM |
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