| Author |
 Topic  |
|
elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
 Posted - 12/14/2009 : 3:45:27 PM
|
after a little research on the league and some more thought....
i agree that USHL at the gardens wouldn't have to have a cheaper ticket to compete; it would just have to be cheaper to get me to attend.
currently the cyclones are the only team in town. a junior A team like the steam doesn't compete with the cyclones whereas a USHL team would. if there is one thing that we all can agree on is that cincinnati is a one team town; there is a probably a case study by a uc or xu economy student that probably shows it quite well.
it would be an interesting business model to bring in a junior team, given discussions that have occurred on this forum about cincinnati being a major league sports city and that's why attendance hovers where it does. i understand the gardens wants tenant and a ushl team is backdoor option that would probably spell trouble for the cyclones. by back door i mean, the USHL most likely has much lower operating costs than an ECHL team and if a 2nd team comes to town and can cause the cyclones average attendance to drop below 2500 for more than a season or two i'd be surprised if the cyclones continue with operations. in that regard i would not support a USHL team at the gardens. if the USHL team were to work in conjunction with the cyclones my opinion would certainly be different.
now it's time to fuel the gardens vs cyclones fire. if that subject makes you say "here we go again" don't read any furher
the gardens has a rich hockey history and i understand their desire for a hockey tenant but they had their chance with the railraiders. i don't know the ins and outs of the whole situation (and i'm sure donnie will tell me how full of crap i am)but as someone on the outside looking in, it sure looked like and the ownership group choose to have season tickets holders provide them with the capital, rather than fronting anymore of their own in attempts, to secure an affiliate claiming that an NHL team wants to see a fan base of 2000+, but i'm pretty sure that in todays economic climate i'm guessing all the NHL cares about is money. it would seem that the gardens, rather than fronting anymore of their own money and then using marketing and promotion to grow the fan base choose to fold their hand. i once had a conversation with an investment banker that told me the first question he asks is how much of their own capital the person was willing to put into the ventur, and if the answer was not 100% he would pass on the investment; after all, if a person doesn't believe in their ability to make his venture financially successful enough to put everything he has into it, why should anyone else invest in it. now the gardens putting out feelers to possibly gauge the success of a USHL team at the potential expense of the cyclones after the cyclones have down the ground work to establish going to a hockey as something to do on a friday or saturday night. is it 1997 again?
donnie and i, on another thread, agreed that the level of hockey doesn't matter to the average hockey fan in cincinnati; it's the entertainment value that does. if the product is as entertaining as donnie says it is and if the ticket price is no greater than what the cyclones are offering then it would be a better entertainment option.
personally, just like when the ducks came to town, i will stick with the team i grew up on and that will be the cyclones.
|
"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
 |
|
|
Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 4:47:02 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
personally, just like when the ducks came to town, i will stick with the team i grew up on and that will be the cyclones.
The team you grew up with folded after the 2000-01 season. That team no longer exists. The team you support now is the third different franchise to use the Cyclones name since 1990 with names like Sheldon Gorski who never wore a Cincinnati uniform at the top of its all-time leader lists in games played, goals, assists, etc. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
|
|
|
elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 6:21:45 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
personally, just like when the ducks came to town, i will stick with the team i grew up on and that will be the cyclones.
The team you grew up with folded after the 2000-01 season. That team no longer exists. The team you support now is the third different franchise to use the Cyclones name since 1990 with names like Sheldon Gorski who never wore a Cincinnati uniform at the top of its all-time leader lists in games played, goals, assists, etc.
I am well aware of different ownership and the different franchises. My loyalty lies with the crest, not the owner, franchise, league or building. As long as there is a team called the cyclones i'll follow them. The name on the jersey is bigger than who owns it, what franchise it is, what league it is, or what building they play in. |
"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
|
|
|
Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 6:29:59 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
As long as there is a team called the cyclones i'll follow them. The name on the jersey is bigger than who owns it, what franchise it is, what league it is, or what building they play in.
And after this Cyclones franchise is gone, will you support the next Cincinnati hockey team that comes along, or sit and wait for it to go away in hopes the day comes when there's yet another rendition of Cyclones hockey? |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
|
|
|
fangers
(The Next Level!)
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 7:03:28 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Donnie HockeyAnd after this Cyclones franchise is gone, will you support the next Cincinnati hockey team that comes along, or sit and wait for it to go away in hopes the day comes when there's yet another rendition of Cyclones hockey?
Fair enough question...but it also needs to be asked of your friends who only support AHL or higher, just substitute for "Cyclones"...
|
|
|
|
Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 8:23:45 PM
|
You can't go to a Miami Redhawks game without running into a quite a few former Ducks fans, which shows they will watch hockey that's not played at the AHL or higher level.
You also see a number of former Ducks and IHL Cyclones fans watching the Blue Jackets at Nationwide Arena. It's difficult for these fans to get excited about the ECHL after they've become fans of the NHL. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
|
|
|
fangers
(The Next Level!)
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 8:45:53 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Hockey
You can't go to a Miami Redhawks game without running into a quite a few former Ducks fans, which shows they will watch hockey that's not played at the AHL or higher level.
You also see a number of former Ducks and IHL Cyclones fans watching the Blue Jackets at Nationwide Arena. It's difficult for these fans to get excited about the ECHL after they've become fans of the NHL.
You avoided the question Don...I also see Cyclones fans at those same games, so that really is a mute point...point is that there are those on your side of the fence who pronounced themselves Fans of all Cincinnati Hockey but then put limitations on that...so the question you ask of Cyclones fans shold also be asked of them...in fairness.. |
Edited by - fangers on 12/14/2009 8:48:37 PM |
|
|
|
Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 9:10:07 PM
|
| I don't have a side of the fence, Joe. I've always been a fan of hockey instead of someone that just supports a name and logo. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
Edited by - Donnie Hockey on 12/14/2009 9:15:26 PM |
|
|
|
elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 10:18:41 PM
|
i support the blue jakcets as well as the cyclones. i am a fan of hockey first. i placed my deposit for derailraider tickets. if you take the time to read what i typed, i stated "as long as there is...." if something happens to the cyclones i will explore my other hockey options. if the cyclones fold because of a move made by the gardens i can tell you that i will not be supporting them, the gardens had their chance to earn my hockey dollar decided to fold before even getting started. if the cyclones fold as a result of a new team brought in my the gardens i will most likely take my hockey budget and give it to columbus. if the cyclones fold and THEN a team moves into the gardens i would give it support although i don't know how excited i could get about USHL. from what i've seen most players that are drafted from the USHL finish their junior careers in major canadian junior leagues or head to college soon after getting drafted. just look at the 2 you mentioned, moore is now with kitchner of the OHL and the other is in college. jared boll played 2 years in the USHL and then once drafted moved to the OHL.
junior hockey has it's place and i'm sure the USHL teams are competitive with each other and are entertaining to watch and if it were my only option i could support it. i got to see players during cyclones game who are now playing in the the nhl, greg stewart and paul bissonette for example. so the arguement that the USHL is better bcause draft picks is minimal at best. sure, two guys got drafted, neither of which are still playing in the USHL, but how many didn't get drafted? i'll be the first to say that the ECHL has a lot of guys that won't ever play any higher, but it also has a lot of guys that are extremely talented with bright futures. i say potato and you say po-tah-to.
the real debate here is where a person's hockey loyalties lie. some support hockey in cincinnati and will support the organization that made an effort to bring it back and will not support a team that would be a detrimental to that team. had the derailraiders actually made it to the ice and then the cyclones made an effort to return, it would be very bitter sweet for someone like myself and to be honest i'm glad i've never had to answer that question. some will support or choose to not support a team because of the building it plays in or who the owners are regardless of any other factors. in my experience, many fans of the ducks and/or gardens who choose to not support the cyclones often site the low level of the echl as a reason as to why they don't but these same people will probably jump at the chance to go watch a USHL team simply because it's at the gardens. i'll also admit that there are probably people who will never support a team owned or operated by the robinsons or one that plays at the gardens. it's just the way it is given the history. personally, i'm not a big fan of the robinsons and would not support a team that competed with the cyclones. personally i could care less about the building, i happen to like USBA for it's location and the social night life options which are easily accessible while downtown.
if someone calls themselves a hockey fan, i find it surprising that they wouldn't support the team that is trying to establish themselves. donnie has mentioned several ideas the cyclones could take advantage of in regards to promotions and media and i have passed them on, but he spends more time bashing the cyclones. that makes him sound more less like a hockey fan and more of a robinson/garddens fan, which i actually find slightly disappointing because donnie does have a lot of hockey knowledge and assuming this is the don i'm thinking of, i actually enjoyed shooting the **** with him a few times at the bar after men's league games during the years when there wasn't a team in town.
history tells us a second team is not good for the hockey in cincinnati. it splits the fan base which would be detrimental to the cyclones, potentially causing them to suspend operations. this split fan base would not have the same detrimental effect to a USHL team with the lower operating costs. a USHL team at the gardens is a bad decision for cincinnati hockey, but a potentially good business decision for the robinsons and the gardens. |
"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
|
|
|
Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 10:50:06 PM
|
| Give me some examples of where I have bashed the Cyclones. |
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
Edited by - Donnie Hockey on 12/14/2009 10:51:46 PM |
|
|
|
elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2009 : 11:31:44 PM
|
generally speaking...rather than supporting them, you continue to harp on the lack of attendance and then rather then coming down to a game you make jokes about not coming because you don't want to miss glee. that sure isn't support.
last season when you congratulated the team and fans on winning the division you were sure to emphasize that it was ECHL. i know a tongue in cheek put down when i read one.
look at your signature. yes, the history of the cyclones parallels that of shlitz, but it sure doesn't sound very positive and when you add the "appeals to a certain audience" it appears as if you feel you're above supporting a team trying to establish itself.
i'm sure i could continue but i'd rather not scroll through your past posts, please note that i gave you credit for your positives in my previous post. many of your posts make it seem as if you feel that you are above coming down to see the product that is cincinnati hockey; comments like the aforementioned sure make it seem that way. now you're peddling robinson's newest potential venture. i have no problem announcing who i support and who i don't and why. why don't you just come out and say you don't like watching hockey at USBA or you feel the ECHL is below you elevated hockey status, or simply you prefer to support whatever the robinsons are trying to sell.
if i'm misreading you i apologize, like i said, you've got a lot of knowledge and i enjoyed talking with you the few times that i did. |
"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
|
|
|
Hockey Traveller
(The Next Level!)
134 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 01:03:58 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
a USHL team at the gardens is a bad decision for cincinnati hockey, but a potentially good business decision for the robinsons and the gardens.
If it succeeds, how is it a bad decision for Cincinnati hockey? Some people think the Cyclones continuing to operate an ECHL franchise in this city is a bad decision for Cincinnati hockey because it prevents the AHL from considering coming back here. Different folks with different opinions for different reasons. Ultimately, if another team of ANY league decides to take the chance to come here and compete with the Cyclones, the fans will make that decision with their wallets.
I like how people say that a league is competitive. What the hell does that mean? ALL leagues are competitive. That is the definition of sports....a competition. Okay, so if you relax the literal meaning a little, then I would guess that if a league has half it's teams 25-0, and the other half 0-25, that wouldn't be a very competitive league. Otherwise, unless there's a huge gap between the top and bottom half of a league, it is a competitive league. Mens leagues are competitive. Pee wee hockey is competitive. Broom ball tournaments are competitive. There are exciting games at all levels of hockey.
And as for Donnie supporting the Cyclones, I do believe I remember that he had Cyclones season tickets for the first couple of years they were back, and has even organized some pretty big groups to come to a few games over the years, only to constantly be harassed by people at the games and his loyalty to Cincinnati hockey questioned by people on this (and other) message board(s). Usually the phrase "when it's not fun any more, it's time to get out" applies to a job, but in this case, it looks like Donnie decided that going to Cyclones games wasn't fun any more, so as a fan, he got out. |
|
|
|
Donnie Hockey
(Loves To Post!)
USA
1514 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 01:30:22 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
generally speaking...rather than supporting them, you continue to harp on the lack of attendance and then rather then coming down to a game you make jokes about not coming because you don't want to miss glee. that sure isn't support.
I wasn't making a joke about not attending a game because I didn't want to miss Glee. I didn't want to miss Glee.
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
last season when you congratulated the team and fans on winning the division you were sure to emphasize that it was ECHL. i know a tongue in cheek put down when i read one.
I apologize. I shouldn't have stated "congratulations to the Cyclones and their fans on winning the ECHL North Division title." I can see how stating it that way would upset you and other Cyclones fans.
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
look at your signature. yes, the history of the cyclones parallels that of shlitz, but it sure doesn't sound very positive and when you add the "appeals to a certain audience" it appears as if you feel you're above supporting a team trying to establish itself.
Support comes on an earned basis.
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
many of your posts make it seem as if you feel that you are above coming down to see the product that is cincinnati hockey; comments like the aforementioned sure make it seem that way.
That must explain why I've supported the Cyclones by purchasing tickets, organizing group outings, and inviting the Cyclones to participate in events that puts the team in a position to get in front of a lot of people.
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
now you're peddling robinson's newest potential venture.
I simply stated what the USHL is and that a team in that league at the Gardens could work. How is that peddling?
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
why don't you just come out and say you don't like watching hockey at USBA or you feel the ECHL is below you elevated hockey status, or simply you prefer to support whatever the robinsons are trying to sell.
Because none of that is accurate.
quote:
Originally posted by elvis77
if i'm misreading you i apologize, like i said, you've got a lot of knowledge and i enjoyed talking with you the few times that i did.
Definitely a misread but I can understand why you would see some things they way you do.
|
www.twitter.com/donhelbig |
Edited by - Donnie Hockey on 12/15/2009 01:35:05 AM |
|
|
|
fangers
(The Next Level!)
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 11:30:22 AM
|
Elvis - There are many USHL Alum in the ECHL/AHL/NHL...here are some who have played for the Cyclones in recent years:
Bushee
Avery Wilson
Van Guilder
Syro
Schmidt
Sawatske
Sean Perkins
McElroy
Krug
Kilpatrick
JJ
Erik Johnson
Howells
Wolfe
Cashman
Roeder
Motherwell
...and probably others (their hockeydb stats don't back past NCAA team) |
|
|
|
elvis77
(Loves To Post!)
1435 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2009 : 12:30:11 PM
|
fangers, i'm not saying it's a bad league. i'm well aware the USHL is a feeder to college hockey and minor pro hockey throughout the country. the USHL is a great avenue for young players since it allows them to play at a high level without losing eligibility to play college hockey.
i mentioned what i did in reference to nhl potential and where the talent goes once it's drafted or college rolls around. for the midwest, the USHL is no doubt a high level junior league which trumps anything that high school hockey can offer and for a player who wishes to use hockey as an avenue to advance his life the USHL gives them exposure the couldn't get playing high school hockey throughout most of the midwest. the fact remains that most of the players, just like most most echl players will never advance beyond minor pro hockey. the vast majority of quality USHL players seem to bolt at 18 or 19 years of age for college (good for them) or they get drafted, in which case it seems they more often then not finish their junior careers in major canadian junior hockey. i'm sure there are exceptions, i just haven't found one yet.
many of the people who use the "poor" level of in play in the echl as a reason to not support it may very well support a USHL team (i'm not saying you're one of these people but they are out there), which doesn't make much sense to me since they would be trying to convince me that the players i'm watching at 22-25 years old are now less talented than they were at 16-18. sure, there are going to be some very talented kids come through, but the same can be said about the echl. every league has it's talent and every league has it's washups. in all practicality, you could call the USHL a junior version of the echl; a few players will make it but most will be minor pro players at best.
good luck to your son in wherever his hockey career takes him. should the USHL give him an avenue to a college education and then the opportunity to live the life of a pro hockey player for a few years, there is abosulutely noting wrong with that at all. |
"PBR can do that to you....1,2,3,12 beers and you're f**ked"
-oscar
"and i don't give a damn 'bout my bad reputation" - joan jett
"beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy." - benjamin franklin
"is that a pulled pork sandwich i smell?"
"some things are just better without pants...."
www.cycwords.wordpress.com |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
